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Crissa
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UPDATED PRICING (Post Inflation fears): Harley Livewire S2 Del Mar launching today at 12:40 CST
- Thread starter Throwcomputer
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HaulingAss
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- #32
I think if you take into consideration that the 100 mile range I specified was cruising between 35 mph and 45 mph, you would find the battery weight needed on a light and narrow bike to be around 100 lbs. or less. Of course the rider weight and aerodynamics starts to play into it pretty heavily on a bike this light and narrow. Current electric motorcycles are quite heavy and they have inefficient motors and controllers relative to a Tesla and no regen capability (which I would want for mountain use) so I wouldn't base it upon your experience with older generation electric street bikes. That's not the class of motorcycle I'm contemplating here.
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Crissa
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- #33
Yes, they're heavy because batteries are heavy. Mine has three segments, each weighing about 70lbs.
The bikes with 100 miles range have four such segments.
And Zero, Energica, Livewire, and a couple of the lost brands do have regen.
-Crissa
The bikes with 100 miles range have four such segments.
And Zero, Energica, Livewire, and a couple of the lost brands do have regen.
-Crissa
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TomGriff
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- #34
I come from an offroad/dual sport/adventure riding background and I think that is a sizeable piece of the motorcycle market. I often ride 100-150 miles between gas stations with nothing between - it will be a long time before those small, remote towns get public EV charging. Until then electric motorcycles wouldn't work for me.
They could work for single track riding, but agreed that weight and ride time aren't there yet. Alta seemed like it was promising (Fortnite video on their demise- ). Where I ride it is muddy and rocky, it is rarely about power it is about keeping a line and traction, both of which are not helped by weight.
Price is a problem right now, I bought a brand new Yamaha T700 for $9,999 (plus some dealer chargers and tax, just over $11,000 out the door). It is an extremely capable bike that I can't ride to limits (of course that is true for most riders whether the want to admit it or not). You can get some amazing motorcycles for the price of this bike.
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Crissa
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- #35
EV motorcycles have made it across the country on wildland trails.
How?
RV camps are basically public charging. Motorcycles don't need high capacity charging to recharge quickly, because they generally get around ten miles to the kilowatt.
-Crissa
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TomGriff
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- #36
No electric hookups in the national forest I ride - (https://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/gi...l Forest accommodate RVs.,-Please note, there). I usually do day rides of 150-250 miles and don't camp. If I did camp, I wouldn't want to camp at an RV park.
An e-motorcycle could work but I would have to change my riding habits and the routes I normally ride.
For single track the 300+ lb Zero seems too heavy, but I will reserve judgement until I've ridden it or seen more reviews by off road riders. If the suspension is good and the center of gravity is lower than an ICE motorcycle, it might work but weight is a killer off road.
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Crissa
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- #37
Yeah, that's why I wouldn't use an EV bike for that so far. At least not yet.
Very few motorcycles go hundreds of miles in a day. Most are used only at their destination, or a few miles here and there.
And. a Zero FX weighs only a few pounds more than a Honda CRF450 and has about the same range. If you use less than a tank there - and trail riders usually don't - then it would work fine.
It just won't work for the ones that ride to the trail, then fill up, then ride all day until empty. Even then, something like a DSR/X with 6-12kW of AC charging might do.
-Crissa
Very few motorcycles go hundreds of miles in a day. Most are used only at their destination, or a few miles here and there.
And. a Zero FX weighs only a few pounds more than a Honda CRF450 and has about the same range. If you use less than a tank there - and trail riders usually don't - then it would work fine.
It just won't work for the ones that ride to the trail, then fill up, then ride all day until empty. Even then, something like a DSR/X with 6-12kW of AC charging might do.
-Crissa
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TomGriff
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- #38
Appreciate the motorcycle thoughts, much like EVs in general, there isn't a single solution for everyone. An e motorcycle that could meet my needs would be pretty cool, but I'm guessing we are years away from something like that. It wasn't that long ago though that an EV wouldn't have met my car needs either, all of them being essentially small city cars.
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Throwcomputer
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- #39
So, Harley must have gotten a lot of crap from people like me who were offended by their jacking up of the non-limited edition pricing over their initial announced pricing range, or must have gotten much lower than expected reservations, cause they just updated pricing again.
https://www.rideapart.com/news/663390/livewire-s2-delmar-pricing-announced/
Timeline:
-Initially announced the Limited edition of 100 units at $17,699 with expected pricing of the non-limited production version to "much less" at around $15,000.
-6 months later when they opened the reservations for the production version, they updated the pricing to $16,999.. which is hilariously/offensively $500 "much less" than the limited edition version.
- Production version was supposed to start delivering by Q2 2023. That got delayed to later this year during Q1 2023
- Today, they announce the production version will start delivery sometime around July, and back-tracked on their jacked up production pricing, back down to $15,499, more in-line with their originally announced price range.
Someone got egg on their face cause they keep on keepin-on in Harley fashion, thinking they are gonna have higher demand then in reality, and think they can price their stuff at a premium like they do the baggers that rich doctors are willing to drop money on when they barely ride.
I'll be testing it out to see if its even remotely worth the correctly adjusted pricing.
I'm thinking all these EV manufacturers got greedy during the height of inflation fears... and went overboard in their money grabs to raise pricing under the mad dash excuse of "inflation". We see the current trend with Tesla being mirrored now with Harley, a manufacturer that notoriously never drops pricing, but counter-intuitively raises it in the face of declining sales.
This gives me hope for close to announced pricing on our favorite phantom vehicle!
https://www.rideapart.com/news/663390/livewire-s2-delmar-pricing-announced/
Timeline:
-Initially announced the Limited edition of 100 units at $17,699 with expected pricing of the non-limited production version to "much less" at around $15,000.
-6 months later when they opened the reservations for the production version, they updated the pricing to $16,999.. which is hilariously/offensively $500 "much less" than the limited edition version.
- Production version was supposed to start delivering by Q2 2023. That got delayed to later this year during Q1 2023
- Today, they announce the production version will start delivery sometime around July, and back-tracked on their jacked up production pricing, back down to $15,499, more in-line with their originally announced price range.
Someone got egg on their face cause they keep on keepin-on in Harley fashion, thinking they are gonna have higher demand then in reality, and think they can price their stuff at a premium like they do the baggers that rich doctors are willing to drop money on when they barely ride.
I'll be testing it out to see if its even remotely worth the correctly adjusted pricing.
I'm thinking all these EV manufacturers got greedy during the height of inflation fears... and went overboard in their money grabs to raise pricing under the mad dash excuse of "inflation". We see the current trend with Tesla being mirrored now with Harley, a manufacturer that notoriously never drops pricing, but counter-intuitively raises it in the face of declining sales.
This gives me hope for close to announced pricing on our favorite phantom vehicle!
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ÆCIII
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- #40
They're quite pricey for those carbon fiber and accessory trims for the other Livewire bike. I thought for $1300 you'd get a little more than those little pieces, not even any for the fenders?!
The niche market for these bikes seems to be urban or locations short frequent trips.
Funny that it still has a 'tank' but it's not a 'tank' (little higher on top of the battery too).
If they're using a drive belt (which they've obviously got experience with by now), it has to be very strong for the extra torque of electric motors to keep from getting damaged or even ripped apart. I remember when belt drives were first introduced on Kawasaki bikes in the 80's, and it was possible to make them wear out or break quickly back then because they hadn't quite refined their strength yet. But from the images and limited specs shown, I can't tell if they're using a belt or chain drive.
- ÆCIII
The niche market for these bikes seems to be urban or locations short frequent trips.
Funny that it still has a 'tank' but it's not a 'tank' (little higher on top of the battery too).
If they're using a drive belt (which they've obviously got experience with by now), it has to be very strong for the extra torque of electric motors to keep from getting damaged or even ripped apart. I remember when belt drives were first introduced on Kawasaki bikes in the 80's, and it was possible to make them wear out or break quickly back then because they hadn't quite refined their strength yet. But from the images and limited specs shown, I can't tell if they're using a belt or chain drive.
- ÆCIII
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Throwcomputer
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- #41
Unfortunately they are so low production numbers that there is zero aftermarket accessories for them, unlike the rest of Harleys lineup which has decades of aftermarket suppliers and bountiful options for every model.i don't think this is going to change soon. They sold a whopping 597 livewire one's in 2022. No incentive for anyone else to get into the aftermarket game for their electric offerings. So you are stuck with Harley accessories, notoriously over priced.
They are targeting 100,000 livewire sub brand sales by 2026. So they got about 99,403 to go. They need to make some drastic changes in pricing if they want to hit those targets! And not the changes in pricing they love to make. It'll take a complete change in corporate thinking, which they will not do.
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Throwcomputer
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- #42
Btw, it's got a belt drive. You can see it in the electrek ride video.
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Crissa
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- #43
By 'short trips' you mean 'multiple times more than most people travel on a daily basis'.
Electric bikes shine if you use them to their range limit ever day. Not being constrained by much mileage maintenance means miles aren't what makes them unaffordable - it's time.
Rural and suburban is perfect for a motorcycle... Enough distance or hills or lack of lanes a bike isn't so great - but enough distance that you want a motor to get you there.
And parking in the city it either free (even if it isn't for others) or a headache. You just need to fit a tiny spot of tarmac not marked 'no parking' that no one uses.
-Crissa
Electric bikes shine if you use them to their range limit ever day. Not being constrained by much mileage maintenance means miles aren't what makes them unaffordable - it's time.
Rural and suburban is perfect for a motorcycle... Enough distance or hills or lack of lanes a bike isn't so great - but enough distance that you want a motor to get you there.
And parking in the city it either free (even if it isn't for others) or a headache. You just need to fit a tiny spot of tarmac not marked 'no parking' that no one uses.
-Crissa
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Luke42
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- #44
It's likely that Harley is doing the same thing my employer does: pricing things based on what sells.So, Harley must have gotten a lot of crap from people like me who were offended by their jacking up of the non-limited edition pricing over their initial announced pricing range, or must have gotten much lower than expected reservations, cause they just updated pricing again.
https://www.rideapart.com/news/663390/livewire-s2-delmar-pricing-announced/
Timeline:
-Initially announced the Limited edition of 100 units at $17,699 with expected pricing of the non-limited production version to "much less" at around $15,000.
-6 months later when they opened the reservations for the production version, they updated the pricing to $16,999.. which is hilariously/offensively $500 "much less" than the limited edition version.
- Production version was supposed to start delivering by Q2 2023. That got delayed to later this year during Q1 2023
- Today, they announce the production version will start delivery sometime around July, and back-tracked on their jacked up production pricing, back down to $15,499, more in-line with their originally announced price range.
Someone got egg on their face cause they keep on keepin-on in Harley fashion, thinking they are gonna have higher demand then in reality, and think they can price their stuff at a premium like they do the baggers that rich doctors are willing to drop money on when they barely ride.
I'll be testing it out to see if its even remotely worth the correctly adjusted pricing.
I'm thinking all these EV manufacturers got greedy during the height of inflation fears... and went overboard in their money grabs to raise pricing under the mad dash excuse of "inflation". We see the current trend with Tesla being mirrored now with Harley, a manufacturer that notoriously never drops pricing, but counter-intuitively raises it in the face of declining sales.
This gives me hope for close to announced pricing on our favorite phantom vehicle!
Our demand-planners know the market well enough to have a pretty good feeling for how price-sensitive each major SKU is - and they adjust the price to reflect our business goals.
Our demand-planners hit the nail on the head a lot more often then you'd expect, given the real-world constraints they face.
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Throwcomputer
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Rode this for over an hour yesterday, with a half hour ride on the Livewire One in-between the Del Mar rides (for comparison). It is a bit tall seat height, but its really comfortable and fast/easy to maneuver. Silent compared to the Livewire One. Speed/Acceleration comparison between the One/Del Mar on my butt dyno shows no discernable difference. Both take off like a bat out of hell and feel exactly the same in terms of acceleration/speed.
Only real differences between the bikes are rider position: One is a more sporty forward lean/Del Mar is more MX upright position and easy to stand up on the pegs if desired. One's seat height is slightly shorter than the Del Mar. (I could stand flat footed on the One, but was up on toes for the Del Mar) The battery is different on the del mar, using standard panasonic cylindrical cells like Tesla, and is a bit smaller which is why its got less range. As a result, the bike is 100 lbs lighter. Other than that, the main differences are cosmetic.. del mar has traditional harley bullet turn signals instead of those butt ugly futuristic light bars on the One. Del mar also went to a more traditional style speedo (in modern technology) with a sportster style circular single speedo, which is a TFT screen. The handlebar controls on the One are standard Harley controls, while the Del mar has updated nicer handlebar controls which also switched over to standard japanese bike turn signal alignment as a single toggle switch on the left (compared to standard harley one on each side for that side).
They are both solidly built bikes, but the Del Mar feels like a more thought out and polished design/construction. The One just looks like the design team didn't flesh it out as much to really keep the essence of Harley (through small design elements like the bullet turn signals and sportster speedo) within a modern/updated styling.
With the pricing dropped back down to close to announced pricing, and comparing it to the existing Harley bike prices, I've evolved into acceptance of the pricing (still think its about 2-3k more than it should be for the range). Its slightly more than I'm comfortable with purchasing, but its a really solidly built bike that does not feel cheap in any way, and I will be selling a couple vintage Vespas to take the sting off that purchase price financed.
I'm a vintage guy, love the sound and feel of old bikes, love shifting/etc, but the more I commute in NYC congestion on my Harley, the more justified my mind sees an electric bike for this narrow use case. No legal lane splitting in NYC. I'll lane split in Manhattan traffic at lights and occasionally in motion when traffic is crawling, but I refuse to lane split on the highway where people drive like animals around here. With that style of driving, I get stuck in an hour of stop and go traffic on the highway probably once or twice a week. Clutch hand cramp is a pain in the ass after half hour or more in traffic. I thought I would hate the twist and go feel of it, cause I hate modern twist and go scooters, but this bike is so fast compared to modern scooters that they are not even in the same ballpark of an experience. The twist and go riding style on an electric bike really isn't noticeable or annoying like it is on a scooter where you just aren't having as much fun! So the twist and go electric bike, not having to deal with clutch hand cramping, and more than enough range for 40 mi round trip daily commuting is pretty much the ideal use case for a bike like this. I've got a Harley for driving longer distance than the range would allow. Bonus is that I work real early and real late for most of the year, so I can commute on this without feeling guilty about waking up the world, and don't have to baby the throttle at those hours of the day/night just to keep the sound down.
I see the pricing this way... Harley/Livewire would love it to be 2-3k more than it is.. customers (like me) see it being 2-3k more than it should be.. and Livewire probably got some crap from reservation holders like myself about changing the price to almost exactly as the limited version.. so they chose the median between their desires and customers desires on pricing, which in turn lands at almost exactly what they announced.
Only real differences between the bikes are rider position: One is a more sporty forward lean/Del Mar is more MX upright position and easy to stand up on the pegs if desired. One's seat height is slightly shorter than the Del Mar. (I could stand flat footed on the One, but was up on toes for the Del Mar) The battery is different on the del mar, using standard panasonic cylindrical cells like Tesla, and is a bit smaller which is why its got less range. As a result, the bike is 100 lbs lighter. Other than that, the main differences are cosmetic.. del mar has traditional harley bullet turn signals instead of those butt ugly futuristic light bars on the One. Del mar also went to a more traditional style speedo (in modern technology) with a sportster style circular single speedo, which is a TFT screen. The handlebar controls on the One are standard Harley controls, while the Del mar has updated nicer handlebar controls which also switched over to standard japanese bike turn signal alignment as a single toggle switch on the left (compared to standard harley one on each side for that side).
They are both solidly built bikes, but the Del Mar feels like a more thought out and polished design/construction. The One just looks like the design team didn't flesh it out as much to really keep the essence of Harley (through small design elements like the bullet turn signals and sportster speedo) within a modern/updated styling.
With the pricing dropped back down to close to announced pricing, and comparing it to the existing Harley bike prices, I've evolved into acceptance of the pricing (still think its about 2-3k more than it should be for the range). Its slightly more than I'm comfortable with purchasing, but its a really solidly built bike that does not feel cheap in any way, and I will be selling a couple vintage Vespas to take the sting off that purchase price financed.
I'm a vintage guy, love the sound and feel of old bikes, love shifting/etc, but the more I commute in NYC congestion on my Harley, the more justified my mind sees an electric bike for this narrow use case. No legal lane splitting in NYC. I'll lane split in Manhattan traffic at lights and occasionally in motion when traffic is crawling, but I refuse to lane split on the highway where people drive like animals around here. With that style of driving, I get stuck in an hour of stop and go traffic on the highway probably once or twice a week. Clutch hand cramp is a pain in the ass after half hour or more in traffic. I thought I would hate the twist and go feel of it, cause I hate modern twist and go scooters, but this bike is so fast compared to modern scooters that they are not even in the same ballpark of an experience. The twist and go riding style on an electric bike really isn't noticeable or annoying like it is on a scooter where you just aren't having as much fun! So the twist and go electric bike, not having to deal with clutch hand cramping, and more than enough range for 40 mi round trip daily commuting is pretty much the ideal use case for a bike like this. I've got a Harley for driving longer distance than the range would allow. Bonus is that I work real early and real late for most of the year, so I can commute on this without feeling guilty about waking up the world, and don't have to baby the throttle at those hours of the day/night just to keep the sound down.
I see the pricing this way... Harley/Livewire would love it to be 2-3k more than it is.. customers (like me) see it being 2-3k more than it should be.. and Livewire probably got some crap from reservation holders like myself about changing the price to almost exactly as the limited version.. so they chose the median between their desires and customers desires on pricing, which in turn lands at almost exactly what they announced.
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